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in other words the 80% of the population that is black has voted overwhelmingly for the anc. the opposition party has been predominately white. so unless or until south africa breaks out of that particular mold, it is difficult to bring about rapid change. so is it too much to ask, the people in townships, is it too much to ask of the government, 20 years of afc rule, to have brought about the dramatic changes that have improved the lives of the people in the townships? >> two issues here. twenty-first is the overall rate of economic growth has been disappointing. it's a little over 3% a year, that's substantially less. than say in china. the second is the educational system has failed the population. for reasons can are obscure. not very similar. about a quarter of the country's budget is on education. that being the case, why isn't the delivery very much better. >> that's a question we ask here in the united states. >> we do. >> so -- no one wants to be thought of as being pessimistic, or apisms so what degree of optimism do you have for the future of south africa. >> oh, p
in other words the 80% of the population that is black has voted overwhelmingly for the anc. the opposition party has been predominately white. so unless or until south africa breaks out of that particular mold, it is difficult to bring about rapid change. so is it too much to ask, the people in townships, is it too much to ask of the government, 20 years of afc rule, to have brought about the dramatic changes that have improved the lives of the people in the townships? >> two issues...
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i was surprised at how much i didn't know the more i started to uncover the struggles of the anc and the struggles of him personally with winnie and that was interesting. because i played him in the movie which was essentially about winnie mandela and i had no idea and i don't think anyone had any idea of all of these smiling shots of him coming out of prison he was going through a terrible time personally. she had kept his flame alive and he had kind of gone off the rails slightly and people in the anc said nelson you have to deal with this woman. he wroat al wrote all of these e letters and they wer he was goie out and they were going to be together. it was further from the truth. >> when you heard the news yesterday. >> i was deeply saddened. death comes to all us. i was really upset by it. and i it just so happened i was sitting in medema restaurant and i was stunned. here i was sitting looking at the walls full of pictures of mandela and he just passed. i think that was quite erie for me. i was sphruk by th struck by tht every single picture i was looking at he was smiling. that
i was surprised at how much i didn't know the more i started to uncover the struggles of the anc and the struggles of him personally with winnie and that was interesting. because i played him in the movie which was essentially about winnie mandela and i had no idea and i don't think anyone had any idea of all of these smiling shots of him coming out of prison he was going through a terrible time personally. she had kept his flame alive and he had kind of gone off the rails slightly and people...
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Dec 5, 2013
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>> well, the anc, the ruling party is the people's party. they have a lot of support. that said, people are questioning the before of some of the politicians, they are wondering where is the country going forward. the mining incident you spoke about, 16 august, when miners on strike were trying to call for higher wages. police aped fire. 34 were shot and killed. the pictures shocked the world. they remind us of the apartheid dates when white policemen would shoot black people who were prote protesti protesting, calling for equality. i think the main thing of concern for south africans is nelson mandela taught them or encouraged them to forgive, forget and move forward. issues of employment and equality. people are frustrated. we are talking 20 years since independence. now we see more people striking. they are basically saying, "what are you going do as a government. now that the moral compass has gone, can the leaders move the place forward and make it a prosperous place and realised the love nelson mandela had for his people. >> what is the state of - sorry to put it
>> well, the anc, the ruling party is the people's party. they have a lot of support. that said, people are questioning the before of some of the politicians, they are wondering where is the country going forward. the mining incident you spoke about, 16 august, when miners on strike were trying to call for higher wages. police aped fire. 34 were shot and killed. the pictures shocked the world. they remind us of the apartheid dates when white policemen would shoot black people who were...
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Dec 6, 2013
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a terrorist group, from margaret thatcher considered the anc a terrorist group and nelson mandela a terrorist. and this is the '80s. there was a lot of resistance to the idea of the government should fall, much less that this die vestment should take place at all. >> this was in the context of the cold war. and one of the most insidious things that the apartheid south african government did was they couched their oppression in terms of the communist struggle, that essentially the anc was riddled through with communists and pro-cubans. when nelson mandela was freed and made this tour. when he got to miami, he was actually rejected by the local government in miami, two mayors of miami and miami dade would not receive mandela because he was perceived as being pro-castro. so there was this whole sort of cold war fight that was tied up in the south african struggle. and it was part of the reason that the reagan administration opposed the idea of sanctions and divestment from south africa. >> please stay with us. >>> coming up, we will look at the presidency of nelson mandela and how he m
a terrorist group, from margaret thatcher considered the anc a terrorist group and nelson mandela a terrorist. and this is the '80s. there was a lot of resistance to the idea of the government should fall, much less that this die vestment should take place at all. >> this was in the context of the cold war. and one of the most insidious things that the apartheid south african government did was they couched their oppression in terms of the communist struggle, that essentially the anc was...
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he embodied the anc's approach, their principles. but he wasn't the only one. during my time in south africa, especially in the late '80s, when apartheid still existed, i met any number of south african, leaders, rank and pile, who had been through terrible injustice. fellow graduates of robin island, for example. people who had been tortured or under banning orders. and almost to a person i heard similar words from them that we heard from nelson mandela after he was released from prison. and in many ways my love for south africa and my inspiration from south africans came from those years when mandela was still in prison, when we didn't even know what he looked like because there was only one old picture. he was the leader. he was the "avatar" of the movement. but there's much, much more, and he was standing on a firm base, firm foundation. >> you know, it's been surprising, mark, you know, on the one handle, this effort to sanitize mandela that we're seeing now, you know, i'm trying to make this kind of play around king, and yet also -- and this is maybe even
he embodied the anc's approach, their principles. but he wasn't the only one. during my time in south africa, especially in the late '80s, when apartheid still existed, i met any number of south african, leaders, rank and pile, who had been through terrible injustice. fellow graduates of robin island, for example. people who had been tortured or under banning orders. and almost to a person i heard similar words from them that we heard from nelson mandela after he was released from prison. and...
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nelson mandela picked up that movement, at the anc. he was influenced by gandhi, and as that movement continues after gandhi went back to india, my family continues as part of the antiapartheid movement. and lost business as a result of they role. but we returned my family returned before the election, were were all given citizen ship. i am a sout african citizes well. and we have shared in this new beginning, which everybody looses hope in, but the fact is nelson mandela avoidedded a blood bath a civil war, and he create add remarkable nation. >> he spent time with the african national congress when it was in excite, stephen, give us your thoughts tonight. >> well, it is a very sad moment. this was a great man. it was true, in some ways her understated not just to dignity, and not just perseverance. but what he was able to exhibit when he took the country forward. there would be no rainbow nation today. i think he was essential for the progress of south africa to becoming what we would regard today as the civilized part of the world.
nelson mandela picked up that movement, at the anc. he was influenced by gandhi, and as that movement continues after gandhi went back to india, my family continues as part of the antiapartheid movement. and lost business as a result of they role. but we returned my family returned before the election, were were all given citizen ship. i am a sout african citizes well. and we have shared in this new beginning, which everybody looses hope in, but the fact is nelson mandela avoidedded a blood...
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at one point the anc made decisions to try and take away all the symbols of the springboks. he knew this was wrong, the whites would think they weren't wanted in south africa. and he got the anc to change its mind and he turned the springboks into a team which supported by whites and blacks alike. it became a truly national team. this was his way or a small example, if you like, of how to unify our nations. he had a sense of purpose. and i only wish we had three or four mandela's scattered around the world now and then we'd never feel the problems that bedevil us all. >> yeah, indeed, absolutely. prime minister frazier, thank you so much for sharing your memories and your time you spent with nelson mandela. we appreciate it very much. thank you, sir. >> it's wonderful to hear all these stories, all these recollections of these private meetings. >> what people say about mandela is he knew the value of something which is called a teachable moment. something we have heard about of late. he knew the value of wearing that springboks jersey at the world couple. he knew the power o
at one point the anc made decisions to try and take away all the symbols of the springboks. he knew this was wrong, the whites would think they weren't wanted in south africa. and he got the anc to change its mind and he turned the springboks into a team which supported by whites and blacks alike. it became a truly national team. this was his way or a small example, if you like, of how to unify our nations. he had a sense of purpose. and i only wish we had three or four mandela's scattered...
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Dec 9, 2013
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and the most amazing story that he told me was on the night before they left prison calling all the anc prisoners together and saying, yes, they would be justified in acts of revenge, retaliation and retribution, but there could never then be a strong, successful, multiracial society, and that was his second great achievement, to achieve change through reconciliation. but, you know, there was a didder achievement, refusing to rest or relax when he gave up the presidency. he had great achievement to his name. he himself wrote that in the first part of his life he had climbed one great mountain to end apartheid, but now in his later life he wanted to climb another great mountain, to rid the world of poverty and especially the outrage of child poverty. and i need speak of only what i saw in the times that i worked with him, how quietly and without fanfare he went about his work. 2005 i flew to south africa to meet nelson mandela to persuade him to come to london so that he could then persuade the finance ministers of the need for debt relief to relieve poverty, and this he did. and then in
and the most amazing story that he told me was on the night before they left prison calling all the anc prisoners together and saying, yes, they would be justified in acts of revenge, retaliation and retribution, but there could never then be a strong, successful, multiracial society, and that was his second great achievement, to achieve change through reconciliation. but, you know, there was a didder achievement, refusing to rest or relax when he gave up the presidency. he had great...
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some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of resistance types tried to storm one of the african so-called homelands. so there were people who tried to keep the fight going. but the balance just had had shift sod dramatically that, you know, de klerk was a realist. and they desperately needed a realist on the other side of the table. >> mr. delms, when i was talking about nelson mandela right before he was officially elected, he gave a lot of credit to the united states. i thought he was being very generous in saying our country was the most -- enemy of the world. do you think united state
some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of...
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the anc. you know, bishop tutu's crowd which is orchestrated by the soviet union. they said we've got to deal with these folks. we've got to meet with them. and i said baloney. >> and there were plenty of republican critics in 1990 when mandela was released from prison and addressed a joint session of congress. congressman tom delay said, quote, nelson mandela is no friend to liberty, democracy, or human rights. and congressman william danmeyer said nelson mandela's appearance before this body is a national disgrace. nelson mandela is no martin luther king. he is more like h. rap brown or willie horton. many republicans may embrace mandela today, but let's not rewrite history. in fact, some still attack him for accepting help from communist nation. but ignore the fact that for years america propped up the apartheid regime. i talked about that on "meet the press" yesterday. >> we chose sides. we chose the wrong side. people in this country turned us around toward the right side. that set the stage for mandela to evolve. but if you're drowning and someone throws you
the anc. you know, bishop tutu's crowd which is orchestrated by the soviet union. they said we've got to deal with these folks. we've got to meet with them. and i said baloney. >> and there were plenty of republican critics in 1990 when mandela was released from prison and addressed a joint session of congress. congressman tom delay said, quote, nelson mandela is no friend to liberty, democracy, or human rights. and congressman william danmeyer said nelson mandela's appearance before this...
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a senior south african military intelligence person who said, quote, our strategy was to paint the anc as communist surrogates, the more we could present ourselves as anti-communists, the more people looked at us with respect. people you could have hardly believed cooperated with us politically when it came to the soviets. i mean, april, i was able to find that in like five minutes online. >> yeah. well, i want to put this in perspective. i talked to former president bill clinton yesterday. did an interview with him and he said, you know, with this issue about nelson mandela and his friendships and those who supported him, like gadhafi and ka castro, he said we don't look like ourselves view themselves. when we went on the tour, the historic africa tour with bill clinton in the second term and joburg, nelson mandela was asked a question about the friendships and nelson mandela himself said, look, if you don't like my friendship, something to this effect, you can go jump in the pool. >> yeah. >> nelson mandela himself said this. >> yep. >> and you have to remember, you know, that when p
a senior south african military intelligence person who said, quote, our strategy was to paint the anc as communist surrogates, the more we could present ourselves as anti-communists, the more people looked at us with respect. people you could have hardly believed cooperated with us politically when it came to the soviets. i mean, april, i was able to find that in like five minutes online. >> yeah. well, i want to put this in perspective. i talked to former president bill clinton...
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trying to temper violence between his party and the anc and supporters of the inkata freedom party, who wanted no negotiations with the government that held them down. thousands were killed in black on black fighting. his marriage to winnie mandella, a powerful political force was crumbling. the woman who supported him during incarceration was accused of having affairs and being linked to the murderous violence in south africa. they finally divorced. through it all they led the country to broader democracy and in 1994 nelson mandela voted for himself in a free election. he won and was inaugust rated as the first black president of his country. >> on this day, you took your destiny in your own hands. you decided that nothing could prevent you from exercising your hard-won right to elect a government of your choice. >> he served one term, leading reforms in child health care and education. modernizing infrastructure. and healing. >> his close relationship with leaders like muammar gaddafi and castro drew criticism, he still visited the white houses meeting with three sitting american prop
trying to temper violence between his party and the anc and supporters of the inkata freedom party, who wanted no negotiations with the government that held them down. thousands were killed in black on black fighting. his marriage to winnie mandella, a powerful political force was crumbling. the woman who supported him during incarceration was accused of having affairs and being linked to the murderous violence in south africa. they finally divorced. through it all they led the country to...
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he was there really because he was an incredibly loyal person to anyone who supported him and the anc during his long imprisonment and democrats had supported sanctions on south africa so he wanted to be there, he wanted to be at our convention. he later came to the inauguration. and then hillary and vice president gore led a delegation to his inauguration in '94 and just five months later, he came to the united states on a state visit. that's when we really started becoming friends and i had the honor of working with him throughout the entire span of his presidency and one of the things that sometimes gets lost in the incredible personal impact he made on the world because of the way he handled imprisonment is that he was a very, very good president. i think he was an extremely effective president of south africa. >> i remember when you and hillary clinton and the first lady toured that robben island cell where he had spent so many years back in 1998. what was that like? >> well, it was amazing. he talked to me about it and i'll never forget, one of the most enduring conversations i
he was there really because he was an incredibly loyal person to anyone who supported him and the anc during his long imprisonment and democrats had supported sanctions on south africa so he wanted to be there, he wanted to be at our convention. he later came to the inauguration. and then hillary and vice president gore led a delegation to his inauguration in '94 and just five months later, he came to the united states on a state visit. that's when we really started becoming friends and i had...
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but like other early giants at the anc, zulus and mutombos, madiba disciplined his anger and channeled his desire to fight in the organization and platforms and strategies for action. so men and women could stand up for their god-given dignity. moreover, he accepted the consequences of his actions, knowing that standing up to powerful interests and injustice carries a price. i have fought against white domination. i have fought against black domination. i have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and equal opportunities. it is an ideal which i hope to live for and to achieve, but if need be, it is an ideal for which i am prepared to die. mandela taught us the power of action but he also taught us the power of ideas, the importance of reason and arguments, the need to study not only those who you agree with but also those who you don't agree with. he understood that ideas cannot be contained by prison walls or extinguished by a sniper's bullet. he turned his trial into an indictment of apartheid, because of his eloquence and
but like other early giants at the anc, zulus and mutombos, madiba disciplined his anger and channeled his desire to fight in the organization and platforms and strategies for action. so men and women could stand up for their god-given dignity. moreover, he accepted the consequences of his actions, knowing that standing up to powerful interests and injustice carries a price. i have fought against white domination. i have fought against black domination. i have cherished the ideal of a...
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the anc had been fanned anyway. people like fidel castro in cuba supported mandela. >> when he came out of prison, he spoke very loudly about my friend fidel castro. >> he's been condemned in certain countries for the so-called terrorism. >> here's the video. they embraced. >> mandela then made a plea to clinton in 1996 he said let us lift the sanctions that the u.s. has imposed against cuba. here is what clinton had to say. >> sometimes, he could be very serious and say i just don't understand why you don't lift the embargo. and i said, well, i think we were about to do it before they shot down those planes illegally in the brothers to the rescue tragedy. and then congress removed the right to lift the embargo. and sometimes, had was just joking about it but underneath all of that, there was mandela's fierce loyalty to anybody who had stuck by him personally and by the anc, the african national congress, his party, during his long 27 years in prison. and castro did. and mandela never forgot it. >> a fiercely loyal
the anc had been fanned anyway. people like fidel castro in cuba supported mandela. >> when he came out of prison, he spoke very loudly about my friend fidel castro. >> he's been condemned in certain countries for the so-called terrorism. >> here's the video. they embraced. >> mandela then made a plea to clinton in 1996 he said let us lift the sanctions that the u.s. has imposed against cuba. here is what clinton had to say. >> sometimes, he could be very serious...